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  • #31817 Score: 0
    threepsthreeps
    Participant
    130 pts

    Been a bit of chat on here about diving so thought I would create a thread for it. Now I’m pretty certain we are all against diving in our own ideal football world. It should be banned yes? But like the game itself, has diving/cheating now developed into something more complex? Is it something we should accept or even applaud?

    To me there are different types of dives:

    1) The Tom Daly. This is the one I think FIFA have identified and tried to do something about. It’s the typical no contact whatsoever and the player takes flight in a bid to trick the ref into thinking there was. It’s so blatant I think the top players know it’s too hard to produce without getting caught. Last time I saw it was the hilarious one Smalling did in his own half which led to a goal conceded!

    2) The Harry Kane. Harry seems to have learnt from Master Micheal Owen on this one. Knock the ball past the goalie (don’t matter if it will go out, just know it past), then as you go past kick him with your back foot. You can probably do it with a defender too to be honest.

    3) The Mo Salah. Feel contact (it is a contact sport no?) then fall over in a much exaggerated way. Probably the most common type and difficult for the ref to distinguish between genuine instances and cheats, and one that stirs the discussions with rival fans.

    4) The Neymar. Not a dive as such (although he does have the full repertoire at his disposal!) but the rolling about the floor as if been shot. To me this is a cheat just as much as a Tom Daly or any other.

    5) The Suarez. Again not a dive but a cheat? Remember him a few times near the byline and he would flick the ball towards the defenders arm. Either he would get past or he would claim a handball (not sure any were actually given). A cheat? Or just cleaver play?

    Lets keep things civil and avoid the tribalism that this topic would inevitably attract on some other forum. What’s acceptable? What should the punishment be? Should they impose a red card for diving? Would that make any difference if the ref can’t spot it anyway? Should we embrace it as part of the modern game?

    #31818 Score: 0
    sean the sailor
    Participant
    344 pts

    A huge problem is refs don’t give pens when players are blatantly fouled but stay in their feet. I’ve seen proper fouls on players who haven’t gone down and not got a pen. It seems you have to hit the deck all the time to get a pen.

    Can’t stand what salah did on sat. The problem there is people even questioned the Brighton pen when it was a clear foul. He has that rep now

    I think that’s what cost sterling a pen yday. Linesman shoukd have seen that but sterling has gone easily in the past

    A red card needs to introduced. Owen introduced that foul in 2002 wc againest Argentina and Kane does it to a tee now

    #31819 Score: 0
    Chucky McChuckfaceChucky McChuckface
    Participant
    457 pts

    Love the names… surely the “Sir Harry Kane” should be the “Micheal Owen”, as it was wee Micky who invented it? Anyway, you missed the “Jamie Vardy”, when a player deliberatly gets he’s legs tangles with a defender causing them both to fall over… 🙂

    The problem I have the the “Salah Dives”, and as my bestest ever cyber chum Waspy mentions above, is the notion that players themselves have decided there was enough contact for them to fall over. That isn’t their job. That’s the refs job. I don’t see the ref’s telling players how to take free-kicks etc.. so the players shouldn’t really be telling the refs how to ref the game either. Sure, the ref might miss some, but they’ll miss some for everybody. Any player who deliberately falls over, having decided the contact was enough in their own opinion, is cheating. It doesn’t matter how much contact there is.

    As I said on the other thread, peno’s are given away too easily these days, it only encourages the players to play for them instead of playing the game!

    #31820 Score: 0
    Chucky McChuckfaceChucky McChuckface
    Participant
    457 pts

    Oh, shouldn’t the “Tom Daley” be either the “Garath Bale” or “Ashley Young”?

    #31821 Score: 0
    threepsthreeps
    Participant
    130 pts

    We will probably all agree that the refs are not good enough. But have we gone past the point of no return? Will introducing a red card make any difference when a yellow or retrospective action has had little effect?

    I’ve been very disappointed with the retrospective banning system, as I alluded to in the opening post I think it’s just the blatant Tom Daley dives that receiving any action, but most top players know to avoid doing these but can get away with the others.

    #31822 Score: 1
    threepsthreeps
    Participant
    130 pts

    The Tom Daley could of been a dozen or so players from the past 10 years to be honest.

    Chucky McChuckface
    #31823 Score: 0
    nine nine nine
    Moderator
    815 pts

    If there’s one debate guaranteed to go round in circles it’s diving with claims of so and so in your team dives too.

    We’ve all got them and so far nothing Salah has done has changed a game in Liverpool’s favour hopefully Klopp has a word it would be a shame if Salah lost the very credible reputation he has built up with all parties through his football.

    Saturday’s one by Salah was probably his most ridiculous yet though.😊

    #31824 Score: 0
    Chucky McChuckfaceChucky McChuckface
    Participant
    457 pts

    But those that are given do change the course of a game though, and there’s been a few of them this season…

    And I’m going to suggest Salah already has that “reputation” issue, as do all the players who practice the dark arts on a regular basis…

    #31825 Score: 0
    threepsthreeps
    Participant
    130 pts

    Nine, I don’t want to start a finger pointing debate, more that I am interested in people’s opinions on how to tackle it or if we should accept it.

    The names at the start were just a bit of fun but also so people could identify difference types of dive as I believe this is were a problem lies. It’s universally condemned if someone goes for a double front somersault in the area with the nearest defender 2 meters away but then when Kane does a Harry Kane or Salah a Mo Salah dive then I hear people say it was well played. Is this acceptable? If not, what can be done? If Neymer was retrospectively banned for his antics he’d never be able to play again! But the authorities turn a blind eye. Why? Or are we all living in a bygone era and need to get with the times?

    #31826 Score: 0
    threepsthreeps
    Participant
    130 pts

    Salah only got the reputation about 4 weeks ago. He’s been accused before (yup there’s that diving contradiction again) of being too honest when he could of gone down.

    #31827 Score: 0
    nine nine nine
    Moderator
    815 pts

    Chucky, I’m not sure of any so called Salah dive that’s so far had a significant impact on a game but you’re right goals change games.

    #31828 Score: 0
    nine nine nine
    Moderator
    815 pts

    threeps, the only way to tackle it mate is to hand out retrospective bans the authorities have the power to do so but seem reluctant to use it. If Salah picked up a two match ban for Saturday he would cut it out as ultimately so would others. A few months down the line it would have been almost put to bed.

    #31830 Score: 0
    Chucky McChuckfaceChucky McChuckface
    Participant
    457 pts

    Not referring to Salah at all cyber chum… a more in general comment! 🙂

    Tree, I think he has cyber chum, just been “highlighted” more lately… (guess I am referring to Salah now! 😉 )

    #31831 Score: 0
    Chucky McChuckfaceChucky McChuckface
    Participant
    457 pts

    That’s the biggest problem with this issue. The powers that be have the “power”, but haven’t been arsed to use it. This could have been, and should have been, nipped in the bud years ago.

    #31832 Score: 0
    Brian blue
    Participant
    302 pts

    The “powers that be” never get the important things right for the good of the game. I agree, should have been stopped years ago, there was a time when you never watched it happen…it is an imported trait to our game. It is difficult to know the best way to resolve it but I would like them to try retrospective viewing and hard punishiment to the player and club for a season to see if it has an effect. I watched an incident not long ago with a player clutching his face and doubled up in so called agony when he was not even touched. That, to me is a 5 match ban at least. I also think some Refs are afraid of star player punishment, why, I do not know

    #31836 Score: 0
    PaganPagan
    Participant
    286 pts

    Diving, to stamp it out it needs to have the buy in from all concerned in the game, The Clubs, The Coaches, The Players, The Pundits, The FA, The Leagues, The Referees, TV companies and the fans.

    You can group the Club, Coahes and players together as diving or making the most of minimal contact has been coached in this country since at least the mid to late 70s to my knowledge. If it’s coached then it has to have an advantage to the club. The reward is greater than the punishment, so no buy in there.

    Pundits, ex players and managers, they’ve been there and done it, would be hypocritical for them to condemn it, so they justify with phrases such as there was contact, he has a right to go down etc. So no buy in there.

    The FA, the leagues and The Refs again can be grouped together, the refs don’t get the support off the FA or leagues as they are spineless when it comes to dealing with the clubs, you couldn’t possibly keep sending off the top players, so no buy in there.

    TV, well it makes good viewing, a bit of controversy puts the viewing figures up, no buy in there.

    The fans, the one group that wants to do something about it has zero power.

    For me the only way it will change is if the FA grow a pair, make diving/simulation/exaggeration a straight red card offence with a sliding scale of suspension for repeat offenders both individual and club. Back the refs to the hilt, no climbing down, mistakes will be made but the game has brought it on itself so deal with it.

    Give it a month of teams losing there top players and it will stop, however it needs to be enforced forever more not just a couple of weeks as most FA initiatives seem to be….Pagan

    #31837 Score: 0
    Chucky McChuckfaceChucky McChuckface
    Participant
    457 pts

    Absolutely agree 100% with your last two para’s Peggy. Come to think if it, I agree with pretty much everything in that post regarding the double standards of managers/pundits. Something happened over the weekend (damned if I can remember what game it was!) but I was listening to the commentary and genuinely wondered if I was watching the same game… the comment was so half-arsed.

    A good start would be the refs yellowing/redding everytime someone gets a bit gobby too. Played a lot of rugby and hockey over the years, and even at my level gobbing to the refs was a no-no from my own teammates. And then you have professional footballers gobbing of every single decision, and I mean every single one, throw-ins the lot…

    I do think many of the issues we have in the game can be solved, or certainly started to be solved, by simply letting the ref’s off the leash (so to speak). Sure, it would be chaos for a few weeks, but it would be worth it in the long run. The rules are there…

    #31838 Score: 0
    PaganPagan
    Participant
    286 pts

    Chuckles, I was going to include the verbals directed at the refs, for me they start gobbling off yellow, they continue, have another it’s bath time.

    I spend a lot of time on the parks at football, Rugby, Cricket games, and the respect the refs/umpires gets varies between the sports, in rugby and cricket the ref/umpire gives a decision, right or wrong and the kids accept it, football even at young ages they start gobbing off, the thing is it’s the same kids that play in all three sports.

    The reason is simple, it mirrors what happens in the professional game, so what do the FA do about it, they introduce the respect campaign bottom up, for some reason they think trying to get a twelve year old on the local park to show respect is going to feed up to the John Terry and Wayne Rooneys of this world….Pagan

    #31839 Score: 0
    Chucky McChuckfaceChucky McChuckface
    Participant
    457 pts

    We’re like best friends now, Peggy (Waspy will get jealous!), I can only assume the monkey-see-monkey-do attitude will filter down in a good way if the little urchins see the Prem players getting battered by the refs when gobbing off (and every other aspect for that matter). If they start seeing the likes of Sir Harry and Emoji-man getting in trouble for, well, basically acting like dickheads, then we can only hope they’ll learn too if the ref’s at that level have the same standards.

    Personally, I would like to think the refs would love to be able to do that, and do kinda think they’re told not too… I always wonder when you see a crunching tackle in the first 5 minutes go unpunished and think if that was the 85th minutes that would be a straight red. I do think there’s some truth to the theory that ref’s are told to “protect the brand” rather than “ref the game” to a degree…

    #31848 Score: 0
    Brian blue
    Participant
    302 pts

    Good comments Pagan and I think there is something in protecting whatever by Refs

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