21st January 2019 at 4:23 pm #31836
Diving, to stamp it out it needs to have the buy in from all concerned in the game, The Clubs, The Coaches, The Players, The Pundits, The FA, The Leagues, The Referees, TV companies and the fans.
You can group the Club, Coahes and players together as diving or making the most of minimal contact has been coached in this country since at least the mid to late 70s to my knowledge. If it’s coached then it has to have an advantage to the club. The reward is greater than the punishment, so no buy in there.
Pundits, ex players and managers, they’ve been there and done it, would be hypocritical for them to condemn it, so they justify with phrases such as there was contact, he has a right to go down etc. So no buy in there.
The FA, the leagues and The Refs again can be grouped together, the refs don’t get the support off the FA or leagues as they are spineless when it comes to dealing with the clubs, you couldn’t possibly keep sending off the top players, so no buy in there.
TV, well it makes good viewing, a bit of controversy puts the viewing figures up, no buy in there.
The fans, the one group that wants to do something about it has zero power.
For me the only way it will change is if the FA grow a pair, make diving/simulation/exaggeration a straight red card offence with a sliding scale of suspension for repeat offenders both individual and club. Back the refs to the hilt, no climbing down, mistakes will be made but the game has brought it on itself so deal with it.
Give it a month of teams losing there top players and it will stop, however it needs to be enforced forever more not just a couple of weeks as most FA initiatives seem to be….Pagan21st January 2019 at 4:31 pm #31837
Absolutely agree 100% with your last two para’s Peggy. Come to think if it, I agree with pretty much everything in that post regarding the double standards of managers/pundits. Something happened over the weekend (damned if I can remember what game it was!) but I was listening to the commentary and genuinely wondered if I was watching the same game… the comment was so half-arsed.
A good start would be the refs yellowing/redding everytime someone gets a bit gobby too. Played a lot of rugby and hockey over the years, and even at my level gobbing to the refs was a no-no from my own teammates. And then you have professional footballers gobbing of every single decision, and I mean every single one, throw-ins the lot…
I do think many of the issues we have in the game can be solved, or certainly started to be solved, by simply letting the ref’s off the leash (so to speak). Sure, it would be chaos for a few weeks, but it would be worth it in the long run. The rules are there…21st January 2019 at 4:53 pm #31838
Chuckles, I was going to include the verbals directed at the refs, for me they start gobbling off yellow, they continue, have another it’s bath time.
I spend a lot of time on the parks at football, Rugby, Cricket games, and the respect the refs/umpires gets varies between the sports, in rugby and cricket the ref/umpire gives a decision, right or wrong and the kids accept it, football even at young ages they start gobbing off, the thing is it’s the same kids that play in all three sports.
The reason is simple, it mirrors what happens in the professional game, so what do the FA do about it, they introduce the respect campaign bottom up, for some reason they think trying to get a twelve year old on the local park to show respect is going to feed up to the John Terry and Wayne Rooneys of this world….Pagan21st January 2019 at 5:31 pm #31839
We’re like best friends now, Peggy (Waspy will get jealous!), I can only assume the monkey-see-monkey-do attitude will filter down in a good way if the little urchins see the Prem players getting battered by the refs when gobbing off (and every other aspect for that matter). If they start seeing the likes of Sir Harry and Emoji-man getting in trouble for, well, basically acting like dickheads, then we can only hope they’ll learn too if the ref’s at that level have the same standards.
Personally, I would like to think the refs would love to be able to do that, and do kinda think they’re told not too… I always wonder when you see a crunching tackle in the first 5 minutes go unpunished and think if that was the 85th minutes that would be a straight red. I do think there’s some truth to the theory that ref’s are told to “protect the brand” rather than “ref the game” to a degree…21st January 2019 at 7:41 pm #31848
Brian blueParticipant109 pts
Good comments Pagan and I think there is something in protecting whatever by Refs21st January 2019 at 8:17 pm #31857
A few thoughts.
How bad is the problem of diving in the grand scheme of things in the PL now? Had the recent incidents with high profile players like Salah and Kane not happened how many other incidents can people think of? I think because it’s an emotive subject for some fans, there is a huge reaction whenever it happens which magnifies a problem that perhaps isn’t as bad as it is made out to be.
Secondly, what to do about the actual incidents of diving? Well if you start becoming too stern you will inevitably create other injustices – i.e. when a person was genuinely fouled but was deemed to have dived because of another opinion. Objectively it can be a difficult call. If a player has a lot of momentum it won’t take much to bring them down. VAR is not a silver bullet. Even though more time may be given to make a decision, the pressure will be on to get the game back moving as quickly as possible. You could start to get confirmation bias whereby if the ref already thinks it’s a dive they may look for something small which will tip the decision that way in their mind. I may partly be playing devils advocate here, but I’m just pointing out the alternative consequences. I think unless the dive is extremely theatrical whilst stood still (like Salah’s the other day) there’s not really much you can do if you don’t want to risk other injustices alluded to above.
Thirdly, it’s said all fans hate diving. I don’t doubt many do hate diving. But if you followed up a poll to fans with the follow up question “if your player cheated but it meant you won a cup should the match be replayed?” How many fans would think it should in that case? If it wasn’t a majority, then they couldn’t really hate diving that much. If you are an absolute purist about hating diving, you’d want the game replayed no matter if other teams were doing it.
Finally, what you will find with VAR will be more penalties given for defenders pulling the attacker’s shirts or fouling when the striker *did* stay on their feet. So, in this regard, VAR may help promote more of a culture for attackers to stay on their feet *if* they know an attempted foul will get punished on appeal – I think that will certainly apply to shirt pullers anyway. But for more general attempted fouls, you would still be making a subjective call that a foul *had* been committed.
Remember with these things that whilst you may solve some problems, you may simply create others.
21st January 2019 at 8:26 pm #31860
- This reply was modified 3 weeks, 4 days ago by Mikus.
Mikus, it doesn’t take much to bring a player down, well it does in rugby, and it does in Sunday morning footy on the parks. In either of those examples if you fell to the floor with the minimal contact we’re now seeing you’d be laughed off the pitch or cause a riot….Pagan21st January 2019 at 8:31 pm #31861
But if you followed up a poll to fans with the follow up question “if your player cheated but it meant you won a cup should the match be replayed?”
I’ll tell you my answer, cyber chum, if one of my boys does it, I’d be bloody annoyed but I wouldn’t want the match replayed. Why? Because, unfortunately in this day and age, I know damn well if the boot was on the other foot, the other team’s fans would bloody well take it too because the other teams players would bloody do it too!!
The chance of curing this particular disease was over the minute we started to hear pundits saying things like “he was entitled to go down there” or “well, contact was made”…
Don’t matter how much we don’t like it, but it’s now part of the game and it’s not going away!
21st January 2019 at 8:36 pm #31865
- This reply was modified 3 weeks, 4 days ago by Chucky McChuckface.
Good point on the shirt pulling – holding a player too and sort of wresting with him.
Remember seeing Heskey do this on Danny Murphy’s Free Kick for us at Old Trafford (Year 2000). What he did was place himself in the middle to break the United wall that opened up the Gap.
I would suspect for many decades, Managers have stressed in the Dressing room defenders to really get into the opposition, especially if they’re technically gifted and clinical. They’ll take their chances on pulling a shirt, wrestling or impeding the attacker player knowing that they stand a 50/50 chance in getting away with it during Real Time.22nd January 2019 at 2:25 am #31871
Oz YobParticipant32 pts
Retrospective ban is one way to punish players that do it. Might be some merit in what Chucky said on another thread, that is a penalty is only given if it’s stopped a definite goal attempt or something along those lines.
It’s not hard to see when a player goes down grabbing his leg & rolling around like he’s in that much pain he’s gunna pass out, then you see the replay and a defender bumped hips with him. Or when they claimed to be tripped and fall forward whilst throwing their head back, it’s unnatural. In these cases, 2 week suspension. Somethings got to change, it’s the biggest blight on the game IMO.22nd January 2019 at 2:28 am #31872
Oz YobParticipant32 pts
Pagan, difference in Rugby is your trying to hide any pain your in as you don’t want the opposition to see you as a weak link.22nd January 2019 at 6:13 am #31873
Funny how some players like Salah, Lukuka as 2 example propose to be men of huge faith and yet they still cheat. That’s much worse than a cheater who is an atheist.22nd January 2019 at 8:31 am #31877
Not sure this is a discussion that needs to go down the faith/religion route to be honest.
My opinion, all players cheat. And I mean all, every single one of them in the premier league. Whether it’s a blatant dive for a pen, waving an imaginary card at the ref or holding their face when someone brushed against their arm, or simply claiming a throw in knowing it them last, to me it’s all cheating.
But are we all just hypocrites that just use the cheat term as a form of tribal attacks against each other? How many times have we claimed a corner either playing or watching knowing it obviously wasn’t? I know I have. We all love to say a rival player is a cheat but we celebrate our own playing “winning” a penalty by foul means. I saw on another thread Adlab list players from other teams that cheat yet omitted city players, saying Sterling sometimes goes down easily! Classic example of tribalism blindness.
I can live with what we have in the Premier League. It’s far from perfect but it’s gone too far to go back. But what I don’t want to see is what you get from players like Neymar, Ramos, Pepe etc, constant cheating to gain whatever advantage they can. I said after the PSG vs LFC game if that was the way football is heading then I will walk away from it. If a European super league ever happens I fear this will be the norm.22nd January 2019 at 8:51 am #31880
Mentioned Ramos in another thread, that’s why I don’t read too deep into the subject in trying to find as solution. Besides, as far as forums/message boards go, it’s been exercised so many times and Associations out there have yet to come up with a resolution.
Maybe VAR next season could invest into it.22nd January 2019 at 9:15 am #31881
The thing is Nil, if they use VAR to review acts of cheating on say PSG vs Real the game would go on for about a day and a half!
I would like to see more retrospective action, but not just with Tom Daley dives, but any form of cheating. So yes, Ramos or Neymar, give them with match bans for bringing the game into disrepute. Sadly this won’t happen however, it’s not in the authorities interest to ban all these top players.
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