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Nine, I wonder if the CL results last week had an impact (even though it’s not the PL).
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Balerion, I partly agree. City, although currently looking very good indeed, are still not perfect. Indeed in their game vs Liverpool I actually thought their cracks were starting to show up until Mané got sent off. Meanwhile Mourinho got crucified by the media for not having a go at Anfield. But it’s all about picking up the points, keeping momentum and not peaking too early. Obviously if Man City can maintain this form, the championship is theirs. But for me, their current form is just that – form. The battle certainly can not be deemed to be over already.
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HH, I think the criticisms were obviously in the context of our whole season, both domestic and European, what with our inconsistencies and ongoing problems. But admittedly, Keane went a step too far and over-sensationalised them.
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HH, there were some valid criticisms but Keane’s ‘bottom of the garden’ jibe was just him trying too hard to be funny and sensationalist. He does that quite a bit as a pundit for me.
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Am increasingly impressed with Pochettino, he’s building a very well balanced and, most importantly, effective side. What would still frustrate me as a Spurs fan after last night however, would be the result, as Sean said, at the weekend at OT. Yes, Kane was absent, but a team like Spurs should now be less reliant on certain individuals. I assume more money wasn’t spent in summer because of the new stadium? If so, then obviously Spurs are planning for the long term which is not necessarily a bad thing. However, Pochettino ain’t going to be around for ever (neither are Kane or Alli if they don’t win a big prize soon) and had Spurs just added one or two real world class players to their team they would be right up there as one of the teams to beat.
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HH, for me that mid to late 90s era was when we had the best balance in the premier league between the best foreign talent and the best club youth talent. It’s clearly gone too far the other way now – some will say it’s better because we have the best talent now from the whole global pool of players. But would you say the premier league is now miles better than what it was entertainment & quality wise?? I wouldn’t say it necessarily was. We’ve lost a lot of club identity for me and it goes without saying that the England team has suffered as a consequence. I suspect over use of the loan system has also damaged the prospects of a lot of our best kids. We’ve sacrificed the soul of our game and I don’t think we’re better for it.
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Almost like a Prost/Senna rivalry between the Manchester clubs – City obviously looking hot at the moment and play glorious football. Man Utd under Mourinho though will keep racking up points consistently and suspect they won’t go away. It’s City’s to lose but José will be waiting for any slip ups to take advantage.
Man Utd @ 9/1 worth a punt?
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I know many would point out he tends to only go to the super-rich clubs, but if Ancelotti was targeted and came in, it would be fascinating to see how he’d get on. I disagree somewhat with the Editor above. He was arguably sacked unfairly at Chelsea. I wouldn’t say he was a disaster at Madrid either – politics tends to play a big role in these situations. At Bayern, whilst his record, particularly towards the end looked poor, again I think politics started playing a role as I believe he had started to drop certain players that the board deemed undroppable and the players tend to get their way in the end. Ancelotti tends to win by creating the right spirit in a side but if he comes up against club politics, there’s only one winner.
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Nine, don’t disagree with much of that – that is certainly part of the problem – I had such concerns as he was being unveiled as our manager. He has also been quoted as saying that he likes to entertain first, create that excitement & winning feeling, and belives this is a good way to build momentum – that itself sounds exactly like a page out of Kevin Keegan’s book.
I just think he thinks he’s also been given a long mandate to implement his way – he obviously wanted to bring in VVD & Keita – whilst they wouldn’t have solved our defensive issues (I think we’ll always be vulnerable under Klopp), I think they still would have strengthened us and Keita would have acted perhaps more like Kante has for you & been a kind of insurance policy (though his red cards aren’t currently making that case :-)). And we’ve seen what happens when Klopp doesn’t get who he wants – he leaves it rather than adds someone that doesn’t fulfil his particular criteria. Again, I think part of this is down to him believing he’s been given a long time to rebuild us so he’d rather do it carefully than in a more rushed sense. Problem is, the PL is less forgiving than the Bundesliga, and so the pressure is now mounting up. Also, Liverpool still has quite a big stature and media focus – hence his moaning of the history putting pressure on the young players – a further sign of him wanting to play the long term game and hence his desire to try and lower the expectation levels. It’s a critical time for him. He either learns these lessons (he’s being paid enough), or he’ll go the same way as Rodgers did.
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Nine, I can’t see many more explanations (unless there are hidden problems between him & the board). Granted he has certainly struggled with the physicality of the league, during his unveiling as LFC manager, he said he would need 4 years before he could get the side challenging for a title. In last year’s summer window, Klopp bemoaned the media/fans obsession with the transfer window, saying it was all about coaching what he had. He is also quoted as saying that he wanted to make Liverpool the ‘most together’ group possible. At the end of the recent window, he again said he was unconcerned if he couldn’t bring in other players. He’s clearly playing the long game here. Why else has he not looked to act more quickly in solving our issues?
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I echo much of what has been said on the thread. I would point to a few reasons why I think Klopp has taken the stance he has over transfers. First I think he thinks he has the luxury of time to build us up after FSG brought him in – even more so when they extended his contract after less than a year in charge last summer. Has that made him feel a bit too comfortable? Also, he has struggled with the physicality of the league which has exacerbated things. The CL has also raised expectations in a period that he sees as merely the middle of a transition process, hence there’s a disparity between what the fans expect and him playing the long game to build us up gradually.
As regards transfers themselves, I don’t think Klopp is used to having more control over transfers, and, like Wenger, I wonder if he now has too much power and control over who comes in. I’m not advocating the return of a transfer committee, but it strikes me that FSG are very passive owners who seem to think Klopp will take care of everything and have thus given him a lot of the control. Klopp’s ‘no signing better than a bad signing’ actions that we’ve seen over recent windows is I think, symptomatic of that. The club obviously need to support him in a resource sense as much as a financial one, but if Klopp becomes too stubborn, it will cost him.
The evidence for my analysis has been seen in his bemoaning of the stature of the club and blaming it’s history for putting pressure on our younger players, as he put it. Whilst he does have a point, it is futile to moan about something he can’t control – there will always be a strong media focus on Liverpool. This is a critical time for him, and he seems to be finding that the premier league is much less forgiving.
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I’m with Oz yob on this. Mourinho always plays the percentages and in this particular game he simply deemed it too risky to have a go. I also think that even though Man Utd have spent a lot of money, they still have a dearth of match winners and I think this fed into José’s thinking at the weekend. I just don’t think José has quite the side he did whilst at Chelsea during the years he won it. If you compare the spines – De Gea is obviously strong enough, but in defence they are not quite there IMO. In midfield he’s very close having Matic & Pogba, but again, I just think Makalele/Lampard & Matic/Fabregas were more refined and reliable. As for up top, again I think Drogba & Costa were still that bit more reliable/refined than Lukaku. Mourinho needs a very specific spine for me, and he just hasn’t quite got it yet though he is close to it.
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Nine, if you refer to my link above, Chelsea did win £5 million more in prize money, but the TV money was about the same as Liverpool. So in total, Chelsea walked away with about £5 million more. You can obviously see a bigger step change in terms of total TV & prize money after the top 6 clubs because their TV appearances are much lower. The step change isn’t huge though between Man Utd & Everton – around a 9.2% drop by my rough calculation. I think we can obviously say the premier league is more competitive now because the TV money is still pretty good and thus the teams lower down can spend quite a bit more money than they used to. My concern would be more against owners who can now sit in the top 6 and enjoy a total revenue (TV & prize money) which, at worst, is just 6% lower than what the champions get – there is an argument to try and increase some kind of incentive there. Arsenal is a prime example.
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What can I say Banjo? – we’re a popular club 🙂
On a more serious note, I take the point – at least it’s not as bad as Formula One where Ferrari get a huge ‘heritage’ payment for the simple fact they are Ferrari.
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Chelsea were awarded £151 million in prize & TV money for winning the league last season. Liverpool, for finishing 4th….were awarded £146 million. Not a huge difference is it? Whilst I agree it may on the surface seem to create a more playing field, from an ownership / investment point of view – where is the incentive to go for the title if the reward is only an extra £5 million? Football clubs are now businesses, and in business you need incentives to drive forwards. I think this has proved a particular problem for foreign owned teams like Arsenal whose owners have little actual presence at the club but are quite happy to count their chips from afar whilst the club stagnates.
Source for figures: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/40125394
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Klopp won’t change his philosophy or bring in a defensive coach. We won’t see a significant improvement until we bring in more quality throughout the team. The failure to do so over summer has put Klopp under pressure. It is baffling given that money was there – I just think he feels too comfortable in his job. The recent remark about the club’s history affecting the players is somewhat strange – was he unaware of the stature/history of the club before he came in and thus the pressure associated with the manager’s job?
I think in Klopp’s mind he wants a long time to build up the club in a traditional way. I sympathise with that, but the climate we’re in now has changed a great deal and sadly you have to deliver fairly quickly. He doesn’t have that luxury. In any sense, I just don’t think the manager’s job as it is now is one that many people can last in anyway because the pressure and demand of it takes it toll.
In a way, there’s a parallel with Moyes’ first season in charge at Man Utd – the way they talked about building in a traditional long term way and the lack of urgency to rebuild the team in the summer window. His quick sacking just confirmed those days were well and truly over. It’s all about bottom line now and nervousness about potential damage to revenues.
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That’s because in Klopp’s mind it is the whole team that is responsible for defending – i.e. the back 5 only play a small part of that which is why he comes out with the comments he does about also blaming midfielders for mistakes that lead to us conceding. The only way Klopp will ever kick on then, is with the injection of some very special players into the team. VVD & Keita were a step in the right direction, but the failure to bring in that type of quality this season will now put him under big pressure – as I say, that failure I think partly comes from owners who aren’t present enough at the club to keep him on his toes. Too much trust can be just as problematic as too little.
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Nine, the question of the owners, FSG, is an interesting one. I think they share part of the culpability in the club’s failures to bring in the players needed whilst also helping to keep Klopp’s feet to the fire to ensure we stay ambitious. But they can’t do that from across an ocean – instead they seem to think that they can trust Klopp with everything and hence won’t interfere with anything. There do seem quite a few parallels with the Arsenal owners in that regard.
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We’re a confidence based team because there are no lynchpins/leaders in the side to help us grind out wins if confidence is low. Klopp is obviously quite picky about who comes in and part of me worries that there’s that element of Houllier about him whereby he’ll bring in hungry players ahead of more talented ones (replacing Anelka with Diouf being the prime example). Also I don’t think there’s enough presence at the club from John Henry & Tom Werner because a) they’re obviously trying to run things from across an ocean and b) because I think they think Klopp will take care of everything and they’ve put too much faith in him.
This is a problem with foreign owners – Man Utd got away with it because the brand had already been built. Abramovich, for all the criticism he gets, does seem to be present at the club quite often and knows what’s going on. Contrast the owners of Arsenal & Liverpool – how often do they come over? I’d be curious to know. It’s argued that some owners may be too interfering if they get too close, but that’s a question of the owner themselves and results obviously dictate whether such interference can be worth it. But either way, if an owner buys a club they can only run it properly if they have a strong presence at the club. Leaving it in the hands of other people basically points to it being bought purely as an investment.
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As well as a lack of leaders, we also lack winners. Why we didn’t look at resolving this over summer I don’t know. Meanwhile Man City putting six past Watford. And before people say Liverpool can’t afford such players, we were prepared to throw £140 mill at two players over summer so that doesn’t wash anymore. It seems Klopp only wants hungry players…we saw what happened when Houllier opted for the more hungry Diouf ahead of Anelka.
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