8th July 2019 at 2:49 pm #43163
(2/2) Just to add, if we are going to be absolutist about such things, what about an attacker who is ruled offside by the linesman but is later proved not to be? The following article (albeit an old one now in terms of where VAR is) is still interesting – it mentions that linesmen should delay raising the flag to get by this potential problem and that it can be checked later if a goal is scored. But all this is adding more and more for linesmen to think about when making decisions. That is not helpful or healthy for them.8th July 2019 at 9:40 pm #43164PaganParticipant371 pts
Minus, it would be nice to think that offside using VAR would be a matter of fact, unfortunately in order to make it fact then the camera would need to be perpendicular to the last but one player, add to this that you’re judging a foot on the ground to knees, chests, heads, then a coloured line draw as a best guess across the pitch isn’t really accurate enough to say a player is on or off to an inch…..Pagan8th July 2019 at 11:13 pm #43165
Pagan, fair point and the article above also briefly mentions this, that there *is* a grey area in which a call would have to be made by the referee for very tight decisions. Whether the Virtual Reality stadium cameras (that Sky Sports used last season) could eventually give a more accurate perspective of exactly where players’ knees, chests, etc are with regards to tight offsides I don’t know, but I agree there is currently a limit on how far you can determine accurately whether a player is offside or not for marginal situations. But I was commenting more from the perspective that I don’t think football offsides were ever meant to be determined at such a minute level anyway (even if the technology was there). At the end of the day, we want the technology to rectify howlers, not rule the game down to the inch (or less).9th July 2019 at 7:30 am #43166MoosParticipant35 pts
Doesn’t matter if the flag is up you play to the whistle, probably linesmen roles will become less of an issue and decrease maybe even become extinct.9th July 2019 at 7:32 am #43167MoosParticipant35 pts
Or linesman only function will become to keep the peace on the sidelines and field.9th July 2019 at 7:47 am #43168steveosnakeeyeParticipant260 pts
i would have though aerial cameras able to track along the length of the pitch would the way to go, possibly even with ones on the side but when does it all go to far? far call from jumpers for goal posts!9th July 2019 at 8:09 am #43169
It’s still all about interpretation Mike Riley has confirmed that under VAR in the PL the penalty against Sissoko in the CL Final would not be given and that he doesn’t believe it was a penalty and has confirmed why it wasn’t and said in the PL next season such incidents wouldn’t be given,so we’re going to end up with two types of VAR one for the PL and one for the CL etc under UEFA Referees which will just add more confusion.
Overall despite the difficulties with implementing VAR I still think it helps the officials get things more right than wrong but it will take time to bed it all in, Riley forecasts 3 years and it will cause plenty of debate along the way.9th July 2019 at 8:16 am #43170steveosnakeeyeParticipant260 pts
noin noin noin…..so basically business as usual in that respect?!
its always been the case that refereeing in europe is vastly different to that in the UK hence more diving, cheating and play acting in europe, we have always struggles with this as fouls that wouldnt be given in the PL are given in the CL, this wont change a bean!9th July 2019 at 6:30 pm #43171BlazeParticipant5 pts
My view is that the guy upstairs must make all the decisions or else the players will pressurise the ref to go look at the monitor on the sidelines thereby wasting time and opening him up to more protests by the players. And yes it looks more and more likely that linesmen days are numbered.9th July 2019 at 7:20 pm #43174PaganParticipant371 pts
Assistant refs won’t be phased out, unless all decisions are going to be made by VAR. Assistant will still be there for things on the refs blind side, and the ball going out of play.
For me the ref on the field has to review the video on the monitor otherwise he has no responsibility and will just shrug his shoulders and say it’s not my decision, you will also get fouls outside the box judged differently to those inside the box as they will be two different peoples opinions, so that’s consistency out of the window.
Yes the players will be pressuring the ref to go to VAR and ultimately they’ll have to do it as the technology is there, so welcome to the 2 hour match….Pagan9th July 2019 at 8:13 pm #43178
Good points Pagan. And let’s not forget only “Four types of decisions can be reviewed using VAR: goals (and violations in the build-up to them), penalties, red cards and mistaken identity in awarding a card. For a decision made on the pitch to be overturned, it must be a “clear error”.10th July 2019 at 3:09 pm #43200
But with regard to offsides Nine, define “clear error”. To a linesman’s eye, Aguero was level with the Spurs defender in the CL QF. One could argue he was “clearly offside” in the video but the key question is whether it was a “clear error” in light of what the linesman saw? And if not, how does one then define “clear error”? Where does one draw the lines of acceptable and not acceptable error margin? Many accepted the Aguero decision because he was still shown to be offside, but as I said at the time, had VAR not been available, in the studio afterwards you could well imagine all the pundits looking at the decision before shrugging their shoulders and saying it was tight and you give the attacker the benefit of the doubt and hence the goal would have stood. But with VAR being somewhat more absolutist, the culture is changing and we’re now labelling a very tight decision as “clear” (when, in the context of the linesman’s eye, it wasn’t clear).10th July 2019 at 3:53 pm #43204Chucky McChuckfaceParticipant517 pts
Don’t like VAR one little bit but at least the off-side “issues” are pretty much black and white. It’s either offside or it isn’t. It’s the more grey matters that VAR won’t solve that get me and more worryingly the element of a players “intent” is completely ignored when watching an incident from 52 angles at 12 different speeds. The Llorente “hip-ball” for example, we can argue forever about whether it was handball or not, but I don’t think Llorente meant it one little bit and VAR did bugger all to fix that. Those are the instances where VAR is going to really screw-up the game.10th July 2019 at 4:03 pm #43205
Mikus, not my words mate “Four types of decisions can be reviewed using VAR: goals (and violations in the build-up to them), penalties, red cards and mistaken identity in awarding a card. For a decision made on the pitch to be overturned, it must be a “clear error” . was the definition of VAR hence the quotes.
As. I said above “Overall despite the difficulties with implementing VAR I still think it helps the officials get things more right than wrong but it will take time to bed it all in”.
It’s here now and love it or loathe it it’s getting more tight decisions right than wrong in a few years time I think we’ll all probably be asking how did we ever do without it.
It works in Rugby and it works in Cricket and we just have to get used to it.10th July 2019 at 4:46 pm #43206
We’ll see Nine, I’m not anti technology, just merely pointing inconsistencies in their own statements, and that in the advent of VAR, whilst we may see some improvements, there will also be flips sides (like longer games as Pagan has alluded to) – to actually improve something without compromising the original benefits is extremely difficult – it’s usually a trade off. And just a final point regarding rugby and cricket – they are much less fluid than football is.
10th July 2019 at 4:48 pm #43208
- This reply was modified 11 months ago by Mikus.
Blaze, to keep everything as simple and as efficient, both the Ref and VAR can work together using a set Framework.
As Nine rightly points out though, the magic word is Interpretation and how the person in control of the officiating views the incident. Take the Sissoko handball.
I though apart from maybe a minority of moments/incidents, VAR overall in the Women’s tournament was supportive.
We obviously need to allow the whole system integrate and settle into the Premier League next season, and I’m sure there’s allowance to improve and modify should there be a need to do so.10th July 2019 at 6:04 pm #43209Hightown hopeParticipant211 pts10th July 2019 at 6:11 pm #43210
Mikus, that’s true about the fluidity of Rugby and Cricket. Games will be a bit longer when VAR is utilised but imo that’s a price worth paying if we get the key decisions right.10th July 2019 at 7:21 pm #43212
Hightown lol, you and me both mate if it’s not going our way – this is probably coming with a Premier League Health warning hahaha 😀 😛10th July 2019 at 7:26 pm #43213
😀 I’m getting a premonition we’ll finally win the PL by a VAR decision – put your money on it, ha! 😀
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