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  • #132084
    nine nine nine
    Moderator

    Certain players can transform Clubs Van Dijk and Alisson did that at Liverpool Fernandes has transformed United from where they were which was mid table to almost certainly CL qualifiers.

    If United are fortunate enough to buy the right players in the transfer market over the next few windows and they work out United will kick on from where they are now.

    I will be suprised if there aren’t 3 or 4 teams challenging for the title in 2 or 3 years and United aren’t one of them.

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    #132085
    Editor
    Keymaster

    Nine, that’s the thing. When you’re in a position of strength ala City now, Chelsea now (assuming they get CL), you don’t have to overspend. Ferguson rarely substantially overspent on individual players. He famously pulled out of the Hazard deal due to it becoming too much money (one of his few big mistakes!).

    Utd wouldn’t have overspent on Maguire had Utd had CL football (and everything that comes with it). City and Chelsea needn’t overspend right now and can afford that patience. Circumstances dictate at what level a club is prepared to go to for a player and risk of a reduced sponsorship deal due to missing out on CL, as well as huge drops in commercial and TV monies meant an overpayment was considered good business with the longer term strategy in mind.

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    #132088
    threeps
    Participant

    Ed, let’s hear from the man himself…

    “I think Fernandinho can play in 10 different positions, because he has the quality to play wherever. He can play there [defence], he is quick, aggressive, intelligent and strong in the air.

    So at the end of the window, we will have to see which players we have. But I think a lot of the midfield players we have here can play at the back, and when that happens the build-up play is much, much better.

    I believe when the ball goes from a central defender to a striker, the ball comes back as quickly as it goes, and we have to make it clear that we are building up in our first process, whether that is defenders or midfielders, and that is why we need players of quality, to play in that style, and we have the players to do that. And I think by August 31, we will have the right players to play the way we want.”

    A few years ago but I stand by my comment that Pep likes to convert midfielders to centre backs to improve the play from the back that he favours. As I said, he has done it at Barca and twice at Bayern previously. I never said it was a long term solution, in each case the midfielder is at the end of their career and likely haven’t the legs anymore to compete every week in midfield.

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    #132089
    Editor
    Keymaster

    Oh I don’t doubt he’s happy playing Fernandinho there. As you say, he’s shown that before. But, a 35 yr old is only ever going to be a stop gap

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    #132105
    Mikus
    Participant

    Neither Liverpool or Spurs overspent to get into the CL.

    As for Maguire being “considered good business with the longer term strategy in mind.“

    What *is* the longer term strategy? Keep the club in the CL and the revenues coming in? Sure. But time and time again at Liverpool all I heard for a long time was “get into the CL to take the next step”…which never came.

    Maguire is the symptom here not the cause. As we’ve said time and time again, Man Utd need a plan and the right manager. Years ago I saw Mourinho as the natural successor to Fergie. But the club passed up on it and than made a mess of it when they did appoint him. And unfortunately that legacy will affect the club for some time yet.

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    #132112
    Editor
    Keymaster

    Neither Liverpool or Spurs overspent to get into the CL.

    Sure, none of Spurs, Arsenal, Leicester overspent to get in the CL but they’re also no longer going to be in it this year either (probably in Leicester’s case). Liverpool spent a lot of money on the 2 most expensive players in their positions (at the time). Granted, both have turned out to be great value for money but at the time they were very much considered excessive fees. Both were world record fees for their positions. Call it the Suarez/Coutinho money or what not but they still spent the fees, in much the same way Utd did for Maguire, despite bringing in £80mil in fees from sales.

    What *is* the longer term strategy? Keep the club in the CL and the revenues coming in? Sure. But time and time again at Liverpool all I heard for a long time was “get into the CL to take the next step”…which never came.

    Which never came….Really? You’ve just won the title for the first time in 30 years. It didn’t work when Liverpool were spending loads during the Ferguson era but that was down to poor investment. Players like Konchesky, Downing, Carroll are not comparable to Maguire. Maguire had the seal of approval from arguably the 3 most successful managers the game has seen and Utd deemed it worthwhile to overpay, considering their position of weakness at the time with not making the CL.

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    #132117
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    ed… on Ake, has he really improved Bournemouth since moving there and he’s in a relegation battle. over two seasons. Think he hasnt developed as he should have, but then that could be explained by the players he has around him. When he did play for us he had mistakes in his game, not sure he’s really ironed them out and jury is out for me on him as a top player. I think Chelsea could do better than resigning him. The question is how many top young upcoming defenders are there in the world game at a price thats not stupid over the top.

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    #132119
    nine nine nine
    Moderator

    Shouldn’t this thread be retitled the Maguire thread??

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    #132122
    Editor
    Keymaster

    Never mind the thread Nine. How about maguiredebate.com ?

    I’m done now on the Maguire thing. We’re going round in circles. Good points all round.

    442, fair point on Ake. I don’t watch Bournemouth enough and you’ve seen him more for Chelsea than I ever did. Always liked what I’ve seen when we’ve played Bournemouth though. Comfortable on the ball and dominant despite his lack of height. Someone will surely snap him up though. He’s way too good for the Championship. I’d be happy with him anyway. Think City may go in for him still.

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    #132129
    nine nine nine
    Moderator

    “Never mind the thread Nine. How about maguiredebate.com ?

    I’m done now on the Maguire thing. We’re going round in circles. Good points all round.”

    Lol! Until the next time.?

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    #132134
    Mikus
    Participant

    Nine, that might be my fault ?, though I do think it points to where the club is at.

    Ed, to actually get into the CL under Klopp, the club didn’t overspend. Then they invested further once in it, but most importantly, had the right man and right plan in place, something they’d not really had in the many years before of being in the CL. The situation at Spurs and Arsenal is well documented on.

    As for Maguire, I’m not here to lynch the guy or call him a bad player. But if a top club pays £80 million on a player then they can’t just be a “bridge the gap” player to the club going from top 5 to title winners, they need to be more than that, regardless of whether he does improve the team. It just isn’t the action of a club targeting the big prizes, more of a desperate one acting out of fear of missing CL money. And rarely does something good come out of acting out of fear. As I say even if you do make the CL, the CL as I’ve said for many times becomes a corrupting influence as the CL ends up using the club rather than the other way around, and the money can actually end up burning a hole in your pocket.

    Sometimes a club just needs to fall down for it to get up again. The CL acts like a distraction that masks the deeper problems at a club and prolongs its misery. So bizarrely, I think a team like Arsenal, if they identify the right players in, could actually be a better bet for success in a few years time.

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    #132137
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    “Really is all about opinions. Personally wouldn’t swap Gomez for Maguire but each to their own. Thought he looked very poor vs City. Still rate him though and think he’ll only get better. ”

    Gomez has been poor since the restart, like a lot of Liverpool players TBH but he is definitely one of the worst offenders, however this is special circumstances and not a true sample of his quality. If you prefer Maguire then fair enough. I was only giving my own opinion of him which may not be correct but it’s my own preference. The Liverpool lads will be well sick of me praising Gomez, as I think he’s absolutely brilliant. So under-rated, except for his very recent form.

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    #132140
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    442 :”him and Gomez may well form the backbone of the England side over the next few years, and I think that could be quite a unique and durable defensive partnership. Gomez, Walker, Maguire… ”

    I think they are just too different to really form an effective, cohesive philosophy. Your high-line options are negligent, with Maguire being so slow and it’s a system where Gomez shines in. Like, I would think Gomez would give mane and Salah a run for their money. He’s very VERY quick. Himself and Van Dijk work well partially because they are both extremely fast for big guys. now, I’m not saying they wouldn’t be a good partnership but just stating that it would be a bit of a weird mix.

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    #132144
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    “I rate Gomez better then maguire nine and that’s not Liverpool bias. ”

    I rate him higher than any Liverpool CB we’ve had in 30 years, excluding Van Dijk. That’s how I get through the Liverpool bias stuff and I know most won’t agree with me here as we’ve had some decent CB’s but this is my opinion.

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    #132147
    nine nine nine
    Moderator

    Mak, Currently Maguire is considered the best No 5 England have by Southgate and Gomez is considered Maguire’s best partner by Southgate.

    As I’ve already said I like Gomez as a player and seemingly Southgate thinks the England pairing compliments each players strength and weaknesses.

    That’s all I’m saying. Cheers 9’s

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    #132150
    maverick1973
    Participant

    We got tonked by about £50m for Maguire,way overpriced.The thing with Utd is that nobody has a plan to actually build a team,like Klopp did it @ Liverpool.No point in just spending trillions on players who dont contribute to a team,like Liverpool.

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    #132164
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Criticalmak. JT wasnt the slowest of coaches but was a chugger when chasing back… Over his career he had Gallas, Cole, Bridge, Carvhallio, dave, and a few others who all had a set of afterburners for legs and that made JT concentrate on his game which was essentially tackling and organising, of which he was brilliant. But the pace was left to others to recover should he miss position.

    Just reckon pace is overated and if you look at how Juventus defend, pretty sure the tortoise would finish ahead of their back line.

    Also, if you go back in time through the United defenders, I cant remember a center half being overly quick for them. Pallister, Bruce, Stam.. Ferdinand was probably their quickest central defender as far as I can remember.

    Arsenal had Bold and Adams and Keown.

    City have no quick center half pairings. Kompany was a lump who could run and sack players with his tackling.

    Reckon Gomez is probably a whippet in terms defnders pace. Hence why I’d have him and walker on either side, or even Wan Bissaka slotting in rhs defense in a back three.

    Anyhow, take a punt on who wins the euros next year given form has gone out the window or who will be in the starting 11… Long way to go before the three lions line up i suspect.

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    #132239
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    442, the thing is though, Chelsea sat back quite deep. My point was that in the modern game with many playing higher lines (or at least having the option of doing it), it’s really tough for slow CB’s to manage it.

    Point taken regards to one helping to clean up if the other was beaten for pace though.

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    #132507
    Editor
    Keymaster

    Sounds like City closing in on Ake now. I really think he’s a good signing for anything under £40mil

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    #132518
    sean the sailor
    Participant

    He’s a left sided centre back so will he play right side as Laporte plays there?

    Really don’t get the hype with him.

    I don’t think he’s great on the ball.

    Be interesting to see how much they pay

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