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  • #113747 Score: 0
    CriticalmaKCriticalmaK
    Participant
    48 pts

    You never know, maybe they are saving up for MBappe! 😀

    #113748 Score: 1
    threepsthreeps
    Participant
    178 pts

    Werner is a good player. He plays at an intensity that would suit Klopp’s team. But where would he play?

    At RBL he prodomitaly plays as part of a front two alongside either Schick or Poulsen (they play a 3-4-1-2). Despite being blessed with loads of pace that you’d think means he plays on the shoulder of the last defender he has actually been the deeper of the strikers. Not sure if that means he plays as a 10, they have Olmo and Forsberg that play that role, but certainly a bit more withdrawn than the other stiker. But does that mean he can play the Firmino role? There’s no real evidence that he could, or any that says he wouldn’t be able to adapt either. He has the work rate so will press no problem like Bobby but has he the guile and skill of our Brazilian, or the ability to drag defenders out of position at the right time?

    He has played on the left but that was done versus Munich to nullify their wide players, something he did rather well at. So he could cover Mane I’m sure, but I doubt to anywhere near Mane’s level. He might even be less effective than a specialist winger/inside forward.

    In an ideal World I would take Mbappe first, then Sancho, then Dembele, then Werner. The finances for Mbappe are astronomical so I think that will remain just a dream for us LFC fans. I heard that the cost of Sancho is also very very high so I would rule that out too. I think Dembele is actually a player we could go for. Two footed, can play on either wing so can cover both Mane and Salah. He has issues at Barca both injury and attitude but he is still a player Klopp admires. If we get him on a loan with option to buy for something like 40-50m then I think this would be our best bit of business this summer. And Barca may take such a low deal as they desperate for cash at the moment. He is on high wages at Barca at 230k which would put him above Mane and Salah so that could be a problem.

    Hightown hope
    #113749 Score: 0
    CriticalmaKCriticalmaK
    Participant
    48 pts

    I think Dembele’s agent just said that he will be staying at Barca this summer, only a few days ago. I could be wrong.

    As for the Firmino question, I seriously doubt Werner could pull that role off to the level that we’d need. For me he slots into one of the other positions but if he did, I’m sure he’d bring his own flair to it and Klopp might tailor the role slightly, if needed. You clearly know Werner better than myself and I won’t challenge that but when it comes to football and players, sometimes you never know how a player might adapt to a team or role in a new team. We have some good examples ourselves.

    Anyway, if not Werner then can’t we look to improve/strengthen anywhere else? Sure, it would be very tough to improve that first 11 but we should ,continue to try, I guess that’s my point.

    Who knows though, maybe we are after someone and they are just going about it in the usual incredibly professional manner. either way , I won’t fret too much but I’ll definitely have an eye on Werner’s impact on that Chelsea team.

    we’re about to win the PL, so I’m quite pleased 😉

    #113750 Score: 1
    threepsthreeps
    Participant
    178 pts

    You’re right Mak the agent did say that. I think it has something to do with those huge wages! Barca are still looking to offload him so you never know, maybe a loan with split wage payment might happen.

    CriticalmaK
    #113751 Score: 1
    Mikus
    Participant
    218 pts

    For Klopp, less is more, which is a big plus when you look at the mentality he can develop. But we saw at Dortmund what could happen when you run a smaller group into the ground. A key question to ask then here, is whether this Klopp strategy can work alongside a simultaneous rebuild strategy to keep the team at the top, or whether it’s somewhat at odds with it. If you like, will it be the case that the light that burns twice as bright burns half as long? And then you have FSG, who HH touches on with regards to them probably being quite happy and relaxed to sit on the sidelines and rely on Klopp bringing success on more of a shoestring, without pushing him or showing leadership to ensure we stay at the top. This constant talk you now hear that “oh, but we couldn’t guarantee Werner the minutes”…I’m sorry, but that’s part and parcel of keeping the side at the top – nobody should be thought of as irreplaceable in our current line up or untouchable. You bring new stars in for them to gradually push out the established player. That’s what ruthless winning clubs do, no player is bigger than the club. You don’t wait for the established player to leave himself and then leave a big hole in the side. That was the story of our lives in the pre-Klopp era, when big stars left leading to another backward step.

    CriticalmaK
    #113761 Score: 1
    sean the sailor
    Participant
    464 pts

    Some very good points guys but I fully trust klopp and the owners

    People were screaming out for signings last season. There are players leaving though and the fronts 3 age is concerning.

    This club is in the best shape it’s bein in since the 80s. It’s been a longtime since I’ve fully trusted the board at Liverpool.

    Hightown hope
    #113763 Score: 0
    Hightown hopeHightown hope
    Participant
    213 pts

    Don’t really see any possibility of us landing either Mbappe or Sancho, as for both those you’ll have an astronomical transfer fee as well as huge wages. Think Werner only went for £50m, a comparative bargain compared to the other two.

    Like Mak, I’ve not seen enough of Werner so I’m bowing to threeps better knowledge of his attributes, but from what I’ve read he would be a good fit at Anfield.Who knows though, maybe we are after someone and they are just going about it in the usual incredibly professional manner

    Mak – ‘Who knows though, maybe we are after someone and they are just going about it in the usual incredibly professional manner’ What,like our persual of VVD???

    #113767 Score: 0
    threepsthreeps
    Participant
    178 pts

    “This constant talk you now hear that “oh, but we couldn’t guarantee Werner the minutes”…I’m sorry, but that’s part and parcel of keeping the side at the top – nobody should be thought of as irreplaceable in our current line up or untouchable.”

    There’s a couple of factors that need to be considered.

    Werner made a lot of noise that indicated he wanted to come here but to be honest I’m not convinced. He is 24 and an established German international, but is he as good as Mane, Salah or Firmino? No he isn’t. So would he want to come to sit on the bench most games or be “plan B”? It’s not about some players being irreplaceable it’s about if some would come and not be first choice. Werner will be no 1 striker at Chelsea, he wouldn’t at Liverpool. And yes our front 3 are 28 but so what? They still have a couple of years at the top. I cannot see a top international player come over and wait two years before they are seen as no 1 choice.

    We could change our tactics to accommodate Werner with our 3 attackers but I would point to the league table and ask why would we?

    The second point is financial. I am not sure how the pandemic has affected the footballing money world but maybe 50m is actually back to being a lot of money. Plus the reported 225k or whatever a week wages which would put him as Liverpool’s top earner then you can see it probably didn’t make sense for a player that wouldn’t actually be a first team player.

    Of course everything changes if one of our 3 get sold but despite a few Mane to Madrid rumours I don’t think that will happen this year.

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by threepsthreeps.
    #113770 Score: 1
    Mikus
    Participant
    218 pts

    That’s all reasonably argued Threeps, but we do need competition for the front 3. If someone comes in and proves just as good if not better than one of our front 3, then surely Klopp will play him? So he wouldn’t necessarily have to wait some years to get in the side. Also we can’t get too rigid with the way we play and being fearful of disturbing the “front 3”. There have been quite a few times where several of the front 3 haven’t had great games but we don’t really have anyone else to bring on or that would help keep them on their toes. To rely on Origi or even Elliot, etc is clinging to an awful lot of hope and not how ruthless winning clubs tend to act. There is much to admire with Klopp as I say, and all managers have their strengths and weaknesses. But as good as it is to have a close knit group with a strong mentality, I do fear it might all go the way it did at Dortmund if we’re not careful.

    CriticalmaK
    #113771 Score: 0
    threepsthreeps
    Participant
    178 pts

    ” If someone comes in and proves just as good if not better than one of our front 3, then surely Klopp will play him?”

    This is the thing, Werner wouldn’t be better. Sure sometimes one of our front three have an off game but everyone does, even the likes of Messi and Ronaldo, and we pass comments like “it would of been better to have Werner come on” with the benefit of hindsight. But Werner is not of the overall class of Mane, Salah and Firmino, he would not be coming over to step into one of their places, he would come as back up.

    We have already one of the best strike forces in the World. There are few players that could improve it, perhaps Mbappe for Mane or Salah. Sancho perhaps if you consider his potential. To replace Firmino? Very difficult as his role is very unique. Messi a few years ago sure (although he was more of a right inside forward), perhaps Suarez a season or two ago. I don’t see that Werner could do it personally.

    #113772 Score: 0
    sean the sailor
    Participant
    464 pts

    But mikius you had reservations over klopp having it in him to get us back to the top but he proved you and a lot of other people wrong.

    He can’t spend what the club doesn’t have. As threeps says, 50 m is a lot of money .

    He’s spent around 120m net and has were we are.It’s remarkable

    Hightown always told me to enjoy the moment and I certainly am these days

    This time next season if we are not digging anyone to really compete and challenge the top 3 then I’d become concerned

    Minamino, Elliott, Jones are all exciting prospects. Maybe they can cover for lalanna and Shaqiri leaving??? I don’t know

    We need an upgrade on origi but whose going to sit on the bench?

    #113773 Score: 0
    CM
    Participant
    5 pts

    Years ago, a former work colleague of mine, knew a few who worked for Liverpool. When Clyne was going through his injury spell, people were crying out for Klopp to a buy a new RB. Klopp refused because he trusted someone in the ranks who could come through and take that spot long term. The rest is history. Klopp looks at the bigger picture. Werner is a quality signing for Chelsea if it goes through. Something tells me Klopps wants Havertz more because of how versatile he is.

    #113774 Score: 0
    sean the sailor
    Participant
    464 pts

    Cm, for the 1st in 30 odd years, I’m totally content as a Liverpool
    Fan. I have absolutely nothing to moan about. Very good point about Clyne.

    Nearly every major decision klopp has made, he has got it right.

    We have been lucky with injuries to the from 3 but we have missed some big players this season but people have come in and covered.

    If we sign no body, I’d still be optimistic we would do well.

    Hopefully we can get the league won. Nothing is ever certain until it’s fully won as this season has shown

    #113776 Score: 0
    sean the sailor
    Participant
    464 pts

    Also cm, I don’t think we signed Werner simply because we wouldn’t pay the fee.

    I’ve no problem with that and FairPlay to Chelsea for getting him

    Excellent player and I’m sure he will do well in the pl

    #113777 Score: 0
    threepsthreeps
    Participant
    178 pts

    Good point CM.

    Read an article recently about Bayern Munich and how the potential purchases of Leroy Sane and Havertz could lead to them playing something similar to how Klopp does at Liverpool. We all know Sane has with his extreme pace (combined with Gnarby on the other the article mentions) but it was the role of Havertz that was interesting. It suggested that he could play a Firmino type role due to his high game intelligence and work rate. Firmino as we can all probably remember played as a AMC in Germany for Hoffenheim, the same position Havertz currently plays for Leverkusen. Having said that I just did a little research and he has played 7 times as a striker this season and scored 7 goals from that position.

    The problem for Liverpool is that he is very much wanted by Bayern.

    #113780 Score: 0
    Mikus
    Participant
    218 pts

    Sean, I think there were many legitimate concerns over us & Klopp until he brought Van Dijk in and kudos to Klopp in finally adapting to the league and identifying what we needed.

    Threeps, you may well be right about Werner. I’m not outraged about it just to be clear, just a touch concerned that we’re getting too rigid with our policy. I accept Klopp has shown how powerful the “less is more” policy is and obviously hope all is in hand for the future.

    #113787 Score: 0
    sean the sailor
    Participant
    464 pts

    Mikius, vvd made a huge difference mate and that’s when klopp tactical finally started to work. The high line, the defending high for free kicks etc.

    I agree with some of your concerns chum. You always make some very interesting points which make me re-think my point of view. That’s what forums are for.

    #113822 Score: 0
    CriticalmaKCriticalmaK
    Participant
    48 pts

    Mak – ‘Who knows though, maybe we are after someone and they are just going about it in the usual incredibly professional manner’ What,like our persual of VVD???

    That is a pretty atypical example of how we usually operate though. Even then, I’m talking about the clubs preference to keep it’s dealings behind closed doors. I assume you’re just having a bit of a laugh but maybe you don’t agree with what I’ve said. The Van Dijk thing wasn’t great that’s for sure but we’ve had a fair few transfers since then and even before then that were carried out in a professional manner. The Fabinho one in particular, it caught us all off-guard. I didn’t know about it until it was agreed.

    “If we sign no body, I’d still be optimistic we would do well. ”

    Well, we are the best team in the league. We should still try to improve, as every other club will be doing the same. I do think we need more quality options up top, it doesn’t matter who they are as long as they are up to the standard.

    I’m not totally on-board the “Werner isnt as good as our front 3, so he’ll be stuck on the bench” argument. There are injuries and fixture congestion to consider, along with the AFCON this year also. Mikus brought up a good point even just regards to form. There are of course tactical considerations. Klopp might think Werner or any other player might be better suited than one of the front 3. there are substitutions… A player of the kind of quality who scores nearly a goal per game in Germany ATM would find plenty of time, even in this side.

    The reason I wanted to delve into this again is that we’re comparing the player pre-Klopp, to players post-Klopp. This is a huge factor and all of our front 3’s reputation as players in world football has shot into the stratosphere since in their time under Klopp. They were all good players before but he has definitely gotten the best out of them and I’ve no doubt that he could do the same with most other very talented players who’s style seems to go well with the style that Klopp utilizes. We also have to consider age here as at 28, if a player still has himself in great physical shape etc, their skills at at peak performance. 24 is definitely no kid but they’ve still got things to learn and improve and combined with the above point, I think it’s reasonable to assume that with luck, we could expect to see Werner or the like of him to push on further.

    Now, word is that we’ve not moved for him because of the coronavirus scenario but I do think that if Klopp really wanted him, FSG would make it happen. So, I can only come to the conclusion that for some reason, Klopp doesn’t want him. Is it because he likes his small squad (which he does to some extent), or that he thinks we have a youth player who can push on into one of the roles in the near/mid term future, or whatever reason it might be… For me, he’s decided against the move and although I will be biting my nails any time one of the front 3 is downed by an opposing player, I’ve got to accept that he knows best. He’s not let us down yet.

    #113823 Score: 0
    CriticalmaKCriticalmaK
    Participant
    48 pts

    “Sean, I think there were many legitimate concerns over us & Klopp until he brought Van Dijk in”

    Agreed. I will admit that I was starting to wonder if he had it in him, to get a team to defend properly. I mostly kept those doubts to myself because Klopp was such an amazing fit for us in every way but until we signed Van Dijk… you all remember how leaky we were.

    #113824 Score: 0
    threepsthreeps
    Participant
    178 pts

    I have had numerous discussions on here and TT about the difficulties of getting additional top quality in and the arguments are nearly always the same. He will get minutes it’s a long season, our front three could get injured, we can change formation etc etc. But these are always situations after the player has arrived, retrospective of the transfer. My arguement is preemptive of the transfer, as in he wouldn’t sign in the first place. Why would he when he can go to chelsea and be number one? He needs to be number one at a club, he is Germany’s top striker. At Liverpool he wouldn’t be.

    We are blessed to have the strike force we have but it also makes getting top quality additions very difficult, none want to come to be second choice. A young player with bags of potential that is hungry to prove himself would be my suggestion for a transfer.

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