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Threeps, I very much accept our plan A tends to work very well most of the time, and perhaps if we had not been competing with Guardiola’s City, one wouldn’t need to go through our team with a fine tooth comb. But we are, so we have to.
This is about making us as robust as possible. Just to be clear, I’m not suggesting we ought to have gone out and bought a luxury attacking midfielder, but I do think it’s not a lot to expect that at least a few of our hard working midfielders also have that goal scoring ability. Indeed we saw how crucial those Wijnaldum goals were vs Barcelona. But we just needed a bit more of that versatility and back up at times.
Now you might argue that had we instructed our midfield to be more aggressive, that might have cost us at the back. But interestingly I would argue this risk factor is exactly where we lost out to City last season. I think for a large part of last season Klopp was trying to find the balance between defence and attack, and we obviously operated in a less gung ho fashion than we had been. That for a large part was obviously a *good* thing. However, in the *big* games last season, particularly in the 6 pointer at the Etihad, we lost that attacking edge that saw us win there previously. So this is perhaps more of a big game problem where we’ve lost our edge. And look at our results in the bigger games last season – we lost every away game in the CL group stage, barely making it out the group. We gained just 1/6 points in the huge games vs City, and we dropped points against Everton & Man Utd, i.e. the biggest games in our calendar.
It might seem harsh, but we have to examine such things when the opposition is formidable. Whether Keita and Ox would have made a difference, well I think they would have, though thinking more about it, I think a lot of it was ultimately down to this balance of risk in the bigger games that Klopp was clearly grappling with last season. And just to link this back to the Wijnaldum point above – why did we deliver in that game? – because the “risk balance” was somewhat thrown out because we *had* to go for it. And what happened? We won and won big!
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” We gained just 1/6 points in the huge games vs City, and we dropped points against Everton & Man Utd, i.e. the biggest games in our calendar.”
We got 97 points. We can’t win every single match. Who’s to say a point at both Everton and Utd, as you say our main rivials, were not good results? Maybe if we loosened the risk factor a little we may of been hit on the counter and lost the games? Vs City it was very fine margins between a good result and a bad one. Yes we have blown them away before but that doesn’t mean we will every time using the same approach. Vs Napoli we were 10 minutes or so from a good result until their play took a dive and won a penalty. If Mane had done better he would of put Salah in for a goal and possibly won the match, would we of needed a goal-scoring midfielder then? Fine margins…
No one can say for sure what would of happened if we played a certain way or if a certain player had been selected, either way it’s just guess work. All I know is that using a very robust midfield to supplement fast and creative fullbacks and forwards works better than any Liverpool team I’ve ever seen over the course of the season. I don’t understand the calls to change it.
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Threeps, yes, we only finished one point behind City with a great points tally, but lest we forget there was an *8* point swing towards City between January and the end of the season between the clubs. Why? Because we weren’t ultimately *bold* enough in the big games and City were. (City’s period of significantly dropped points mainly coincided with injuries to big players over Christmas).
It’s the draws that cost us. You’re better off winning one and losing one than drawing two. It is exactly in this area that City won because they were bolder.
If we are to win the league with Klopp whilst Guardiola is here, we don’t necessarily have to change the staff in midfield, or our approach against the lesser sides, but we do *have* to be bolder in the bigger games.
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Threeps, just wanna say that you’ve got pretty much the same position as myself regards our midfield. It is hindsight revisionism when we don’t get the win. It’s totally fine to bring up Coutinho because he is the perfect reference for this topic. We all miss what Coutinho did for us in attack but people don’t seem to appreciate that our midfield is 10 times better without him.
The defensive side of the game is a lot more subtle, so it’s under-appreciated by most, including myself sometimes. I think we’re all guilty of coveting the attacking side of the game from time to time.
For me, it’s Fabinho who’s come in and “settled” our midfield (for use of a better word). He’s locked down the defensive side of the game. His skills are MILES above the others in this regard and him dominating midfield has allowed the others to be a bit more expressive and it’s worked wonders for us.
Before Fabinho, we had a very laborious midfield who carried that label heavy and hard. The complaints from fans were much louder then but that midfield took us to the CL final. I don’t think we get that far with Coutinho because with him, our midfield was too leaky. He would go missing and you can’t afford to do that when playing top opposition.
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Mikus, I don’t agree that we lost the title because we weren’t bold enough. I’m not denying that we were quite reserved last season, in general (in comparison to previous ones with Klopp). I think we lost the title based mostly on an inability to handle the pressure. We were 7 points ahead, with level games(I don’t remember 8 but could be wrong) and things changed then. As fans we can only experience a certain amount of these types of feelings but when things shifted around, I found myself asking questions of “can they keep going.. can they handle the pressure?”. I imagine this was roaring in their heads as they dropped points repeatedly. Funny how the second we lost the initiative, we were back at it again, focused and demolishing teams.
We’ve got that experience but also, winning the CL will really have solidified their confidence in themselves and each other. I can’t say that we’ll win the league as the requirements these days are crazy but I think we’re a better side now than we were then, due to that experience.
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There’s natural hindsight when the result hasn’t gone our way.
I don’t have any qualms as such on the loss itself, what I have tried to convey from seeing man city’s squad depth is that I don’t think playing a well drilled side Napoli did we do ourselves any justice trying to squeeze everything out our front 3.
It was like basketball, the intensity.
We needed good quality fresh legs and I always felt a pacey attacking midfielder or a striker would suit us to the ground to manage 60+ games.
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Nil, I remember you and me having some intense discussion about this “we need a 20+ goal striker”. When we started it, Firmino hadn’t really proven himself in the role (at least to be widely accepted as good there). My point is that back then I think it was genuinely up for debate, even if I was one who said everything else he did made him invaluable etc etc…
What I want to ask though is what Firmino has to do in order for you to accept him in the team? In my opinion, if you put Aubameyang in there tomorrow, we’ve weakened the first 11. Not only does Firmino set the other 2 lads up constantly, he scores goals too.
i think you may have a point regards an attacking mid. It would be nice to have 1 more quality player to choose from but if we get this striker you are constantly asking for, he must go somewhere. that front 3 is starting every game they are fit for.. so unless you are replacing someone, you’re asking for something that is just not plausible.
That said, I’m all ears man.
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Exactly Threeps, regards the 97 points. Those draws with Utd, everton etc are only bad results because City were on our tails. I’m past it TBH. Thje CL win put the shine back on this side and although I obviously REALLY want to win the Pl this season, I feel like the lads got paid back for all their efforts with that win. I don’t even think about missing out on the PL, in any real negative way. We’re still as good right now and will give it another go!
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Fabhino has been unreal. He’s becoming like a deep lying playmaker.
Excellent tackler and our most vital midfielder.
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Evening Mak, I hope you’re Good!
I don’t have recollection of that particular discussion.
In saying that however, it does ring quite a bell with me as at the time I was a big Firmino Critic.
29 Million was a lot of dosh for us circa 2014.
Assuming as he Firmino didn’t take off ‘instantaneously, this would have been after our near miss for the Title?
Man, that’s like 5 years lol!
Where does Time Go?! 🙂
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Premier League SPYING storm: Liverpool ‘paid £1m to settle claims from Manchester City after rivals brought in experts to see if their scouting system had been hacked’
Liverpool ‘paid Manchester City a £1m settlement following spying claims’
September 2013 payment came after City alleged breach in scouting database
Three former employees of City who’d moved to Liverpool were accused
City accelerated the signings of Fernandinho and Jesus Navas after the claims
By ADAM SHERGOLD FOR MAILONLINEWhat do you think of this!!!
Full of idiots who arent clever enough!! You have to laugh!
1m not bad – pays a months wages for someone!_____________________________
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We’ve got to level the playing field somehow Adlab 😉
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Adlab, just let us have the Premier League Next Year lol 😛
Pep and You Guys can have the CL – sorted 🙂
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Gonna ask this in the Liverpool themes thread to avoid annoying the others but lads, since 2 people on here have given out about the ref today, saying he gave us the game etc, what’s your take on him because I don’t remember a SINGLE thing that went our way that shouldn’t have.
Thoughts?
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Just posting on our particular section on the back of my views from Thursday.
Now, it’s clear against some opposition teams or practically who we play when in ascendancy the ‘gamesmanship’ comes in.
Realistically, we can’t strip away our core, but if we save certain individuals from having to play the full 90 minutes and send them for any early bath, in the long run, this may do us justice.
Matip has been an unsung HERO for us. He has stepped up to the plate in Gomez’s recovery.
Ok, so I will throw in ‘Coutinho Cliché’. We need a Boy like this hahaha, but where can we find a new one to unleash those Beautiful drives outside the Box? 🙂 🙂
We need Substitutes simply READY. The Right players for the right positions and NABY needs to recover and be ready to step in.
I like Lallana. I always fancied him as a 3rd Captain or Captain first choice of our ‘B’ Team.
What we are doing in essence is killing 2 birds with one stone:
1) Giving our regulars more rest
2) Giving our bench guys more game time to gain more experience and that ability and confidence to step in whenever needed.
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Mak, maybe people are alluding to VAR. But other than that, Oliver I thought was fair-minded. We didn’t really get a lot of decisions our way which would be expected essentially going away from home playing a Big Club In Chelsea.
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Nil, the question is null and void, since the boys have since spoken about it.
I came across a really cool stats though :
Liverpool have been in more CL finals over the past 18 months than they have lost PL matches.
That is beyond crazy.
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Was Matip really a Bosman signing? What a player!
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Hey Mav, hope you’re well 🙂
Klopp has hailed Matip as one of his best signings 🙂
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49854788
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Well, time to press the Reset Button and put aside our wins we’ve delivered so far.
A clean sweep for both August and September as far as our domestic league goes is always an achievement in it’s own right.
Of course, the league’s not won now.
I hope we will really be more wiser going forward and take all the learning from last season.
We know Manchester City are a Fantastic side with an array of good quality players, and a very solid Tank to compete with.
We can only try and give it our best, but with belief, hope, confidence, commitment, resilence and determination 🙂 🙂 🙂
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New Balance sir… at the minute City playing catch up, do me a favour could you tell this Chelsea fan what sitting top the ladder looks and feels like. Was with a forest fan last night who was 15 when they were last top of the championship, theyre fans went wild at full time like he did, he was really quite emotional. City will be breathing down your necks fairly soon I imagine so do enjoy the experience and perhaps you’ll close out this season.
Enjoy the rest of the Sunday games.
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