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“you’re basically arguing that getting the wrong decisions in football is better than getting it right”
Um… not sure where you got that from. I am saying it’s ruining my enjoyment because even with VAR they are getting it hopelessly wrong. VAR is a tool to aid the very difficult job of refereeing, but it seems to me that either the wrong people are in place, or they are working to incorrect guidelines, whichever, it’s a farce. It’s a lot more frustrating seeing the ref make an incorrect decision, wait a couple of minutes for some wally to conclude that the he agrees with the incorrect decision.
So I’m arguing getting the wrong decisions in football when you have the capability to get it right is worse than just getting it wrong on your own. VAR is not working in my opinion, and looking at the press and pundits seems I’m not alone.
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I wonder whether the emphasis shouldn’t be on the Referee to ask for assistance from VAR as they do in Rugby when the Referee sees something he’s unsure about he refers it to the TMO.
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VAR will never get it completely right many of the decisions come down to human error and the clear and obvious error requirement can leave things floating.
But I think 442 is probably right the majority of the decisions the Referee gets right look at Mike Dean turning down the Arsenal penalty and booking Saka seemingly quite rightly.
Despite the VAR controversy it is still probably getting the majority of the decisions right but the ones that they’re getting it wrong can be improved.
The Chelsea goal v Liverpool for instance!?
I definitely think Referee’s need to be making more use of the pitch side monitors for crucial decisions and I would include situations like the Origi incident that culminated in a goal in that having viewed it on the monitor though he might well stuck to his original decision.
But let’s not attack individual Referee’s and each other over VAR if Martin Atkinson got anything wrong on Sunday and ultimately I’m not sure that he did he’s human and it would have been an honest mistake and a very good Referee with massive experience too.
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To be fair nine, if we take offsides and handballs in lead up to goals out of the equation, I dont see any increase in the accuracy of refereeing decisions post VAR. I hope it gets better as we move forward, but as it is I am not conviced the benefits have outweighed the cost to the experience of the game.
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Lucky, there’s obviously room for improvement mate hopefully future meetings analysing what is going right with VAR and more importantly what is going wrong with VAR will help improve it but you are never going to get VAR 100% right look at the Delafour penalty claim on Saturday it looked like a penalty to me but the VAR didn’t think it was one. That was his opinion after reviewing the footage.
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I dont think anyone expected 100% accuracy Nine. What we wanted I think was considerable improvement, or at least improvements considerable enough to make the delays worthwile. Like I said I hope it improves, but right now the balance is tipped against it imo.
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Why not just use it for handballs and offsides in build up to goals? Thats all it seems fit for, everything else is ultimately decided by the ref on the field anyway.
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Also VAR cant over rule ref, but who has the higher probability of making the best subjective call, the ref who see’s the incident once or VAR who can see it many times through many angles?
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VAR is a definite necessity there were far too many mistakes by the officials, I understand that even with VAR now there are still mistakes like recently but it’s very very few errors compared to before VAR, the other issue where celebrations are dulled in case the goal may be ruled out is a very minor issue. So the pros far outweigh the cons.
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Blaze, but apart from handball or offside, where is the improvement in decisions?
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Makes a lot of sense to me.
Like I have said, when you take offsides and handball out of the equation (and they only come under VAR if happen in build up to goal anyway) we are not necessarily getting better decisions. We are still relying on the ref on the field like we were before as VAR will not over rule, so how could that possibly lead to better decision making, it is a non argument.
Like Hackett says, ultimately VAR needs to be stronger in telling the ref he could have made an error so that he can review it himself, thats the only way we will see a demonstrable improvement in decision making, outside of the aforementioned handballs and offsides restricted to build up to goals. The only other option outside of that is for VAR to be allowed the right to over rule the ref if from their multiple angles and views they disagree with the refs decision based on his one time viewing of the incident, sometimes from very difficult angles.
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I think the first thing that needs to be defined is what exactly clear and obvious actually is. For me that’s would you expect the officials to have seen it and be 100% sure he’s made a correct decision. Being offside by an inch running at full pelt and also trying to see when the ball is played is not clear and obvious. The handball in the Liverpool non goal was also not clear and obvious as there’s no way the ref could have seen it from his position.
If the VAR officials have to look at different angles multiple times to come to a decision that’s not clear and obvious.
The ref needs to make the decisions himself, if he looks at the monitors and immediately knows he’s made a ruck of it then fair play, that’s clear and obvious.
Also in respect to offside, do any of the techy folks know what the frame rate is if the cameras are?
….Pagan
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VAR rules on offside Pagan it might be millimetres which is arguably frustrating but offside is offside and the most accurate part of VAR.
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Mr Pagan, I’m in agreement with your first paragraph.
“Clear and Obvious” seem the latest Buzzwords, but as you rightly point out what does that define?
Although harsh, the Accidental Handball definition seems to be consistent. My thing is the Referees: some will give a foul and others will be inclined to let the play go on.
The Players are best advised to play to the Whistle and not to be presumptuous.
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9s, offside cannot be determined to millimetres because the system is not accurate enough. At 25kmh which is an easy speed for players to run at 25mm takes less than 4/1000 of a second, I would suggest that the cameras don’t have that frame rate, add to that the best guess on when the balls played, which again is an opinion using cameras. If that’s the most accurate part, then the whole system is flawed….Pagan
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Also we all need to remember that VAR is not just a PL issue it’s an IFAB issue and applies to football worldwide not just to the PL.
I do think there need to see consitencies though ie in some countries Referee’s are consulting the pitch side monitor ours in the PL for some reason aren’t.
On the clear and obvious error point it couldn’t be more clear and obvious VAR will not interfere with the game without he feels there has been a clear and obvious error by the Referee.
I and everyone else might not agree as to whether if was or wasn’t a clear a clear and obvious error but the only man that matters is the VAR and if he doesn’t think it was a clear and obvious error he won’t interfere.
A clear and obvious error is subjective though and open to human error.
I was taught from a very young age you play to the whistle as were all the current players and I don’t think we’ve seen any players stop playing with the thought that VAR would intervene that would be both dangerous and foolish.
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Pagan. that might be your view but the general consensus by those in football is that offside is the area of VAR that is working the best and I don’t think from memory there have been too many arguments about goals that were given that were offside or goals that weren’t given that should have been given because they weren’t offside.
Whether there needs to be an agreed tolerance level for offsides that overcomes the millimetre decisions is probably something that needs looking at but that is an IFAB worldwide decision and not a PL decision..
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9s, I would say that those making the comments don’t have an engineering background, and as such don’t understand tolerances and general measuring principles.
Personally I still think VAR will be used more and more, and although it will eliminate the vast majority of errors it will ruin the game….Pagan
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Pagan, we’re 90 games into a PL season and I can’t remember any arguments about goals that were deemed offside that shouldn’t have been deemed offside other than the debate about greater tolerances maybe being needed or goals that were scored that should have been deemed offside. Which has to be a big positive with how VAR is managing offside.
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Pagan you cannot realistically factor in all the tolerances to get an exact representation, you just have to go with the nominal. Takes the 11mm non goal between City and Liverpool last season. Did the computer take into account the tolerance build up between goal line and ball diameter? Did it take into account the dynamic distortion of the ball? If it did maybe it would of been a goal, but that is unrealistic in my opinion.
For offsides and handball VAR is working. The technical side is fine. It’s the human side when it comes to errors and reviewing them I have an issue with.
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