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“I didn’t want the UK to leave the the EU but I respect democracy and that was the will of the people.”
It’s nice to have people who respect democracy and it’s depressing to have to say this , in this day and age (looking at USA) but there is a huge problem in this for me. I dont know how to put it but I don’t feel that this entire process was very sincere and the democratic value is tainted. What I am getting at here is that when you ,vote in say a party or leader, over 50% is totally fine but when you’re talking about lasting law, political… constitutional changes basically, you just CAN NOT go with a majority win scenario. 65% is the golden number, there or there-abouts would be fine but this isn’t a matter that will come and go with slight changes, so it must have a higher qualifying mark.
For some reason, i cant think of the name of your leader when this was called, i can see his face… but he really messed up, or he played it really well. personally I think the man was showing signs of depression. There is a “I give up” element in how the UK ended up with the 50-50 margin vote for Brexit and after that it was a shit-show of misinformation. There are so many things about this that are sad. For me the very worst thing about it is that the Russians were able to manipulate a foreign nation into weakening themselves, exploiting human nature to a point where I would never have imagined could be possible, in such a targeted/focused manner.
Over the years, I think I was more on the Russian side of the cold war, in that I couldn’t stand the rhetoric of the American media. After Brexit and Trumps election in 2016, I’ve really come to “appreciate” the awful potential of Russian intelligence.
It’s scary how truly powerless we are to mass manipulation.
Edit : sorry if this is poorly written. dont have time to correct. cya later boys
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I am a moderate leaver, I wanted to get out of the political side of the EU but recognise that Britain is no longer any kind of significant power anymore so could have lived with us staying in the single market (i.e. a Norway type deal). Given that we don’t really make much anymore, a lot of the trade is going to be incoming rather than outgoing. Yes we can make the UK more attractive to businesses by lowering taxes (and no doubt the EU has some worries about that), but I don’t think it will be as significant as some people make out. For me the country needs to start making things again that the world wants as well as reforming the education system where standards have dropped significantly. If we could start doing that again and enhance our prosperity and productivity, perhaps in the future we could have looked at further disentangling ourselves from the single market. Until any political party starts to grasp our current account imbalance, the country will continue to slump.
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PS…..I have also have good friends in Europe, they all, without exception think we are right to come out. However, littleuse talking about it, we will be out soon enough, we will paddle our own cannoe and I expect others will do the same and life goes on
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Well, as Threeps said in the Liverpool thread, politics might best be avoided. My own views differ from both Mikus and Brian, it would be easy to slide away from discussion, into something less productive (not that I am feeling the urge here or anything) but this is a real flaw of the human psyche. It’s these topics that would best be served by discussion, that we struggle to speak about objectively.
Maybe 442 had a bad day, I’d be a hypocrite to focus too much on what was said but from what I see that isn’t deleted here, I think he owes Brian an apology. We all have bad days or even just phases and all can be forgiven.
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threes…thanks for the explanation on “boomers”. Haha, that lets me out for being one since I was born in 1934. Maybe another name for that as well!!!!!! I do appear to recollect the name a little but thought it was the 60s. Well…you live and learn
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Brian i didn’t know either so it gave me an excuse to do research haha.
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I love how you boomers pull up the draw bridge while saying im alright Jack…. Cant wait for the transfer of wealth after you lot are gone.Lol
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Mav, Id have harsh words for it but I’ve gone off the rails myself.
Brian, you lived through WW2, if you ever felt the need to create a thread and tell us about some of that experience, that’d be amazing. I dont even mean anything dramatic but I find interest in the subtle differences of how people lived their lives at another time , compared to now. of course, it was another word for the people on the lines and some stories should never be told.
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Mak….I would have to start another thread but living through the war years does leave a mark in your memory. Just as a short picture, I was reading yet again how HS2 would change our lives travelling from Manchester to London in just under two hours i think. In 1940/1 my father was stationed at Aldershot in the Royal Signals and once a month we ventured down on a Friday night on the Midnight train from Manchester Piccadilly Station, it was packed to the rafters with service people and it took 6.5/7hours to get to London, stoping many times for air raids and to let priority trains pass. We cared little for our own safety,, it was all about doing what you set out to do I always found the mix of Service people amazing, they were from all parts of the world. In those days people were always respectful, my mother always was given a seat by some kind serviceman, my sister and I sat on cases in the corridor. Going to the toilette was out of the question, always people sleeping there!!!
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People were always sleeping in the toilet? haha wtf? As for how people were back then, well that opens up a whole discussion about how we raise our kids, it would never end but that’s the thing about technological development over the years. We see so many things advancing that we assume that everything is going forward but that definitely isnt the case. of course back then it was socially acceptable for world leaders to throw away millions of lives. At least that is now less acceptable in the West.
Stopping a train because of the risk of an air raid though… and we have people going on about 2020 like it’s the worst event in history. That has got to be frustrating to listen to.
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At the time of WW2 Mak, although I was still young but like many caught in the STRICT rules of what you could or could not do. Yes, we had Christmas parties on what the coupons would allow and many forces on leave would bring there rations to help out. The biggest light in Manchester at Christmas and Boxing Day was the centre of Manchester going up in flames, we lived approx 3 mile from the centre. I climbed out of the Anderson shelter to watch the sky red and yellow and bombers above, My mother soon hauled me back. The noise was frightening though. My parents taught me many things which I hope i passed on to my children. The one thing I find lacking in society now is respect for others The days when few locked there doors are well gone also, now you need sophisticated security systems. The war years had there moments and it was not all a rosey picture, too many suffered
have we learned anything? I do not think so, we will still have warsand hardship, it is about how youlive your life at the same time The war years did unite people ina good way and everyone helped out_____________________________
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Wow, that’s really something but as you said, we havent learned and unfortunately the reason for this is that in order for us to truly learn, we have to experience things for ourselves. Otherwise there is a conscious detachment, ,”it happened but to someone else, it wont happen to me”.
True hardship brings people together, what we’ve experienced so far (except for those who have lost their lives or their health, loved ones etc etc), this is not hardship and we need to chill with the “2020 worst year ever”, except for when we’re joking around (I joke like this too).
anyway thanks for that Brian, fascinating stuff.
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We Need Borders – Once And For All
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You think Northern Ireland was worse off with the Good Friday Agreement? How so?
Just think of the 100s of people who are still alive now, who would have been killed in the sectarian violence. If you have something that counters that then I’d love to hear it.
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Leaving the EU will be an unmitigated disaster. Even if there is some sort of trade arrangement it will be the hardest of hard Brexits. What about 80% of our economy -the service sector and we are pissing about with fish. Its misplaced ideology.
Bozo talks about Australian arrangements. Why? They are white, play cricket and speak English. They operate on WTO terms just like for example Pakistan. Nobody says we are leaving on Pakistani terms do they. They just lie.
Everybody is a loser especially Ireland, also Spain, Germany and France but we lose the most. Where are the 75 million Turks coming here? Just to fighten the racist over 60s.
Total utter fuck up. Who will suffer? It wont be me particularly, we are reasonably comfortable. It will be those who believed tbe lies.
Im not a fan of the Brussels unelected bodies but it is far better to be in than out.
There. Off my chest!😊_____________________________
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PS
A cabinet full of brexiteers. Havent they done well._____________________________
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Bit too late for all that Adlab.😊
I didn’t want us to leave but the people voted we should leave and like it or not that’s democracy.
Both sides should sensibly agree a trade deal now as ulyimatrly it will harm both sides if they don’t.
But if they don’t we just have to get on with it rightly or wrongly the dye is cast now and as a Country we’ve faced a lot worse than this more than once.
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Brexit is more of a symptom than a cause. The exodus of the working class from Labour actually began under Blair with New Labour who purposely tried to change the country in many radical ways, with neoliberal corporatism and uncontrolled immigration just several of them, both of which were harmful to the working class. But because people vote tribally there was always just about enough of a residual vote to keep voting Labour. However, that pretty much went with the referendum when Labour voters were free to vote against their party. And the Tories have now grabbed this vote. Brexit is primarily a reaction against a liberal order now in intellectual decline. So the type of Brexit we get isn’t important as grasping why people voted – something the liberal establishment still has yet to grasp. Instead, the free trade zealots who still think Britain is some kind of significant power have hijacked the policy and given the country doesn’t make very much, it’s hard to see how there will be significant benefits. We’ve talked on here about things like apprenticeships and that is something that has to come back as well as investment in trying to restart some kind of manufacturing industry to replace the neoliberal corporatism that infects much of it, something which has been able to take a huge advantage with the devastating measures taken to allegedly control the virus. Until any government grasps these things, things won’t improve.
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Mikus
Interesting view.
We rely too much on consumption rather than investment. Thats why in G7 terms we are stuck_____________________________
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“Leaving the EU will be an unmitigated disaster.”
This is true. It’s really depressing to think about ti cause it’s going to ruin our economy also. Ireland are setting up other trade routes but.. For us, there is no replacing the UK. I’d get shit for saying this, as an Irishman you’re sometimes expected to tow a certain line but money talks and shit walks.
Brexit will devastate Ireland. it will happen in at least 1 way but of course the problems in the north is another way and Boris Johnson is targeting the destruction of the Good Friday Agreement. This treaty has saved an incredible amount of lives and it should not be sullied.
There is talk of Northern ireland joining the republic and most people support this over here but I dont, well not entirely. It would be great to have our island back in one sense but there would then be a huge number of people who would be forced into being a part of a country that they do not want to be in… it would just be the same thing all over again. it would kick off violence, people would needlessly die.
The Good Friday Agreement must stay intact. Whatever happens to our economies, this must survive, in order to keep tensions down and save lives.
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